Some of you have suggested I create another post where you may discuss the novels you are reading for your last independent study novel this semester. Great idea! So let the comments commence!
If so, what do you think of the differences between Victor Frankenstein and the monster? Who do you think is more human and who is more monstrous? How do you think Mary Shelley's background, her mother was a feminist, she was recently married, and she was only 18 years old when she began writing the novel, influenced the text?
I'm curious to see what other people thought of this novel.
You always ask such good questions! One important note about Mary Shelley--she married Percy Shelly, the Romantic poet, after his first wife committed suicide while Percy and Mary were living together in Italy. Sometimes we see guilt in Percy Shelly's poetry, and betrayal/guilt seems to pervade much of her writing. The idea of monsters being human and humans being monsters is also explored in Beowulf, the excerpt from Grendel, and "A Hero's Journey"!
I read Frankenstein this summer, and I'm here to help!
I LOVE your question about who is more human and who is more monster. I think an important thing to realize about the story is how Victor is BEFORE the monster as compared to how he is AFTER the monster. I mean, in all honesty, his life is going pretty great, although admittedly dull to the reader, until he creates this THING. I saw the monster as being a sort of catalyst for change; like Dracula, the monster shows us the power and punch of evil! Instead of being seductive, like a vampire, evil is very narrowly defined by the look of the monster, and although Victor is never "seduced" by the evil, the drive that brought him to its creation and his equally strong drive to end it shows a purpose he had previously lacked. The creature and Victor were codependent in my mind; just as evil would not have been born without the hand of good, good has an equal influence on the maintenance of evil.
That could be COMPLETELY off base or not at all what you were looking for, but I hope it helped in some way!
I am looking for people who have read Wuthering Heights!
I have a couple of ideas I want to pursue with the novel: society vs. the insanity of Wuthering Heights, and how Thrushcross Grange comes to represent society, the perceptions of society on love and desire, true love vs. simple love, the idea of a split soul, loss and grief, etc. I'm also looking at the patterns of the families and the long road of revenge in the novel!
But...can anyone help me with anything else? I feel like I understand the story, and its major themes and whatnot, but I am so interested to hear what anyone else took from it/thought of it!
I am interested in pursuing some of the messages and ideas in Jane Eyre. First off I am just itching to know what you think of Jane as a female character. Does her gender influence her experiences throughout the novel; would her circumstances have been improved if she were a male character? As a female, Jane is subject (I think) to some stereotypes of the Victorian age. I am wondering if/how she defies these stereotypes (I have my opinions but I want another point of view) and if she is successful in doing this. Are women today subject to stereotyping, have we been successful in defying them or do women tend to promote them in some cases? In the novel, Jane wishes to be beautiful, supporting the common misconception that women who are beautiful are sought after and successful, more worthy of love/praise than the average woman. Okay I hope some of you answer these questions because I am in love with this book and I want to know more, especially from a feminist perspective! Thanks guys :)
Jane Eyre is one of my favorite books OF ALL TIME.
I think Jane is exceedingly subject to sterotypes, not only as being a woman, but also as a "poor and plain" one. She not only had to struggle in the face of society with the perils of being the fairer sex, but also because she does not possess the usual feminine guiles of money or beauty. I also think its powerful to look at how Jane's desires are very feminine and also very masculine throughout the novel: although she longs for love and affection, she also desires respect and has a strong sense of fairness, right and wrong, and a large amount of personal integrity. I think that your questions bring up wonderful ideas we can follow through other great works, too! Take Lady Macbeth: beautiful, clever, and very evil. Or Elizabeth Proctor: not a great beauty, but a strong sense of right. You could also examine how if a woman is not beautiful, sometimes they MUST make themselves seem masculine to be accepted, and how this dichotomy is harmful even in modern society.
I am almost through the book, and I see a lot of potential themes and motifs, and a lot of interesting little tidbits in the text, but I can't see the big picture to it and everything. My main questions are over the significance of the color red (or the assignment of color to each group of people), the Eyes and guardians, the style in which Atwood has written, the significance of Nick as a character, how her story relates to our society today (do we see these qualitie now? why would she choose to make her novel this way?). If anyone can offer some insight it would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks so much for your help Meghan, you insights were very intriguing and informative :) If you care to answer, I would like to ask another question. Although I believe I understand the main themes and messages of the novel, I was wondering about the tone. This device often throws me for a loop and if you could give me some guidance that would be wonderful because even though I do understand the book, I feel my understanding would be deepened if I knew how Bronte felt about the ideas she communicates. Thanks so so much!
There's this incredible website you can visit: http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/bronte/cbronte/bronteov.html It has Charlotte Bronte's biography, insights into her life, autobiographical elements of Jane Eyre, her views on religion and etc!
Hey Meghan! I read Wuthering Heights as well and I fell in love with this book. I think one of the themes in this book is passion and how untamed passion consumes a person wholeheartedly, as much to a point of killing them as seen in the death of Catherine Linton. Passion is also obvious when we look at Heathcliffe and his savagery. His love for Catherine destroys his morality turning him into a beast. Another critical theme that i encountered is the role of society in this book. This theme is so relevant because it is the obstacle Catherine's and Heathcliffe's love.
I had a question concerning Ghosts in the novel. The scene where Catherine dies and Heathcliffe damns her soul to never rest and haunt him was so powerful. After reading this passage I fully understood his love for Catherine. Also when Heathcliffe begins to detetiorate at the end of the novel, I got the gist that he was seeing Catherine's ghost. I was wondering what you thought about that.
That is such a good observation! Ghosts do seem to show up just EVERYWHERE...I thought Heathcliff saw Catherine's ghost at the end, too! Mr. Lockwood even dreamed about Catherine's ghost.
I also saw "ghosts" in the more figurative sense, too; because Heathcliff and Catherine cannot exist without eachother, they become ghosts with the others' absence, characterized by Catherine's illness and Heathcliff's near insanity at her death. OooooOoooooo...spooky!
Sarah, as you know, I read the Handmaid's Tale, and I don't want to spoil anything, but I think if you continue reading some things will become clear. Without being cryptic or anything like that...
I'm reading The Power and the Glory, and to my knowledge, only one other person in our class is reading it. I didn't initially like it but as it became increasingly dystopian I was quite pleased. The lack of character names tend to muddle things, but in general, this book is proving quite the rip-snortin' good time. I think I have found some allusions to "The Hollow Men" as well.
I finished reading it and let me conclude by saying that nothing has become clear to me. I have found some good websites about the allusions used in her novel so that is helping, but I cannot figure out what the author's tone is. Is she being critical? Passive?
That website truly is a amazing Meghan you are a life-saver :) But now I would like to pursue a different topic if you don't mind.
I find the dynamic between Jane and St. John Rivers incredibly complex and interesting. Together I see them as a sort of antithesis, a balance of opposing human natures. Where she exhibits plainness, fire, and passion, St. John displays the opposite in being ice-cold, attractive, ambitious, and strict. My question is what purpose does he serve in the novel? Does he illuminate the difference between the female and the male's idea of marriage and love? Does he act as a foil to her character? If so, why does Jane willingly subject herself to this oppression? Is it to drive away thoughts of her dear Mr. Rochester, to exert her efforts in pleasing a man other than him?
Now for the biggie: the ending. I just don't understand how after so much internal and external suffering in each of the characters that the novel has a happy ending. Though I admit I am a sap when it comes to love stories and I truly enjoy it when everything wraps up nicely, here I feel kind of jipped. I almost feel as if this happy ending would be unrealistic in society, that, being the flawed humans we are, the characters would not have the learned their lessons or atoned for their sins. Furthermore, I feel that Jane would have in reality been forced to accept the marriage proposal put forth by St. John, that she would have had no other choice in the face of such a domineering male figure. Therefore, I think that the ending is wishful thinking on Bronte's part. However, why does she express these wishes when throughout the novel she demonstrates society through a realistic lens, portraying the spectrum of human vice and suffering with the utmost clarity? But now that you know what I think, what do YOU think?
I know you are all busy with finals so don't feel pressured to answer :) Good Luck to you all!
I found St. John to be a great example of antithesis, like you observed! But I also thinks he shows the dangerous imbalance that can occur when people deny their HUMANESS in their search for SPIRITUALITY. Jane is very spiritual and also worldly; she loves God and does her best to follow Him, while recognizing the world must have some claims on her and not denying her earthly passions. St. John has reached a place where he has smothered his humaness in his quest for God. The author views this in an admirable light, but also seems to question; similarly to Jane's cousin that chooses to become a nun, these characters lack deep personal conviction and faith that makes Jane's own beliefs so powerful. We cannot relate to St. John; Jane offers us an example of holiness we can all hope to achieve.
I actually think the ending is PERFECT, for the flaws you describe! The story, as you said, is all about internal and external sufferings, the weaknesses inherent in humans, and the human strive for goodness. The ending illustrates that in life, often one must sacrifice (Mr. Rochester very obviously, Jane in a more spiritual and emotional way) but that despite the flaws and sins of every human being, we all deserve a happy ending. No one in life should have to be alone and unhappy; Jane and Mr. Rochester show us how our souls can ultimately become whole even after they have been torn apart. There is a happy ending even for the "poor and plain," and for the rich and the fallen; there is a balance that can be reached between spirituality and earthly desires, and ultimately we are all capable of being happy within this balance!
Dear Meghan! The idea of Ghosts in figurative sense is amazing when you analyze Catherine's and Heathcliffe's love. Also when Mr.Lockwood wakes up from his dream he said that angels were angry and threw him to Wuthering Heights. I know you related Wuthering Heights to absence of civilization, but could it also be hell? Think about it. It seems like a place without any means of escape. Catherine gets sucked into in when she marries Linton. Also just book is pretty depressing and sad so maybe that's why Bronte decided to name it Wuthering Heights because it symbolizes hell and dystopia?
Meghan thank you so much for your incredible ideas. I had never viewed the novel through the lens you presented and it has certainly benefitted me :) In all honesty I deeply share your love of "Jane Eyre", and I believe it is my favorite novel of all time as well! Good luck this week and have a superb winter break!
21 comments:
Did anyone read "Frankenstein"?
If so, what do you think of the differences between Victor Frankenstein and the monster? Who do you think is more human and who is more monstrous? How do you think Mary Shelley's background, her mother was a feminist, she was recently married, and she was only 18 years old when she began writing the novel, influenced the text?
I'm curious to see what other people thought of this novel.
Thanks!
Alyse
Hi Alyse--
You always ask such good questions! One important note about Mary Shelley--she married Percy Shelly, the Romantic poet, after his first wife committed suicide while Percy and Mary were living together in Italy. Sometimes we see guilt in Percy Shelly's poetry, and betrayal/guilt seems to pervade much of her writing. The idea of monsters being human and humans being monsters is also explored in Beowulf, the excerpt from Grendel, and "A Hero's Journey"!
Hello Alyse!
I read Frankenstein this summer, and I'm here to help!
I LOVE your question about who is more human and who is more monster. I think an important thing to realize about the story is how Victor is BEFORE the monster as compared to how he is AFTER the monster. I mean, in all honesty, his life is going pretty great, although admittedly dull to the reader, until he creates this THING. I saw the monster as being a sort of catalyst for change; like Dracula, the monster shows us the power and punch of evil! Instead of being seductive, like a vampire, evil is very narrowly defined by the look of the monster, and although Victor is never "seduced" by the evil, the drive that brought him to its creation and his equally strong drive to end it shows a purpose he had previously lacked. The creature and Victor were codependent in my mind; just as evil would not have been born without the hand of good, good has an equal influence on the maintenance of evil.
That could be COMPLETELY off base or not at all what you were looking for, but I hope it helped in some way!
~Meghan
Hello again, everyone!
I am looking for people who have read Wuthering Heights!
I have a couple of ideas I want to pursue with the novel: society vs. the insanity of Wuthering Heights, and how Thrushcross Grange comes to represent society, the perceptions of society on love and desire, true love vs. simple love, the idea of a split soul, loss and grief, etc. I'm also looking at the patterns of the families and the long road of revenge in the novel!
But...can anyone help me with anything else? I feel like I understand the story, and its major themes and whatnot, but I am so interested to hear what anyone else took from it/thought of it!
Thanks,
Meghan
Is anyone reading Jane Eyre?
I am interested in pursuing some of the messages and ideas in Jane Eyre. First off I am just itching to know what you think of Jane as a female character. Does her gender influence her experiences throughout the novel; would her circumstances have been improved if she were a male character? As a female, Jane is subject (I think) to some stereotypes of the Victorian age. I am wondering if/how she defies these stereotypes (I have my opinions but I want another point of view) and if she is successful in doing this. Are women today subject to stereotyping, have we been successful in defying them or do women tend to promote them in some cases? In the novel, Jane wishes to be beautiful, supporting the common misconception that women who are beautiful are sought after and successful, more worthy of love/praise than the average woman. Okay I hope some of you answer these questions because I am in love with this book and I want to know more, especially from a feminist perspective! Thanks guys :)
Oh my goodness Kelly!!!!
Jane Eyre is one of my favorite books OF ALL TIME.
I think Jane is exceedingly subject to sterotypes, not only as being a woman, but also as a "poor and plain" one. She not only had to struggle in the face of society with the perils of being the fairer sex, but also because she does not possess the usual feminine guiles of money or beauty. I also think its powerful to look at how Jane's desires are very feminine and also very masculine throughout the novel: although she longs for love and affection, she also desires respect and has a strong sense of fairness, right and wrong, and a large amount of personal integrity. I think that your questions bring up wonderful ideas we can follow through other great works, too! Take Lady Macbeth: beautiful, clever, and very evil. Or Elizabeth Proctor: not a great beauty, but a strong sense of right. You could also examine how if a woman is not beautiful, sometimes they MUST make themselves seem masculine to be accepted, and how this dichotomy is harmful even in modern society.
Hope that helped dear!
~Meghan
Is anyone reading The Handmaid's Tale?
I am almost through the book, and I see a lot of potential themes and motifs, and a lot of interesting little tidbits in the text, but I can't see the big picture to it and everything. My main questions are over the significance of the color red (or the assignment of color to each group of people), the Eyes and guardians, the style in which Atwood has written, the significance of Nick as a character, how her story relates to our society today (do we see these qualitie now? why would she choose to make her novel this way?). If anyone can offer some insight it would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks so much for your help Meghan, you insights were very intriguing and informative :) If you care to answer, I would like to ask another question. Although I believe I understand the main themes and messages of the novel, I was wondering about the tone. This device often throws me for a loop and if you could give me some guidance that would be wonderful because even though I do understand the book, I feel my understanding would be deepened if I knew how Bronte felt about the ideas she communicates. Thanks so so much!
Hello Kelly!
I'd be glad to help you!
There's this incredible website you can visit: http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/bronte/cbronte/bronteov.html It has Charlotte Bronte's biography, insights into her life, autobiographical elements of Jane Eyre, her views on religion and etc!
Hope that preview knowledge helped, Kelly!
~Meghan
Hey Meghan!
I read Wuthering Heights as well and I fell in love with this book.
I think one of the themes in this book is passion and how untamed passion consumes a person wholeheartedly, as much to a point of killing them as seen in the death of Catherine Linton. Passion is also obvious when we look at Heathcliffe and his savagery. His love for Catherine destroys his morality turning him into a beast.
Another critical theme that i encountered is the role of society in this book. This theme is so relevant because it is the obstacle Catherine's and Heathcliffe's love.
I had a question concerning Ghosts in the novel. The scene where Catherine dies and Heathcliffe damns her soul to never rest and haunt him was so powerful. After reading this passage I fully understood his love for Catherine. Also when Heathcliffe begins to detetiorate at the end of the novel, I got the gist that he was seeing Catherine's ghost. I was wondering what you thought about that.
Thanks!
Sweta
Sweta dear!
That is such a good observation! Ghosts do seem to show up just EVERYWHERE...I thought Heathcliff saw Catherine's ghost at the end, too! Mr. Lockwood even dreamed about Catherine's ghost.
I also saw "ghosts" in the more figurative sense, too; because Heathcliff and Catherine cannot exist without eachother, they become ghosts with the others' absence, characterized by Catherine's illness and Heathcliff's near insanity at her death. OooooOoooooo...spooky!
~Meghan
Sarah, as you know, I read the Handmaid's Tale, and I don't want to spoil anything, but I think if you continue reading some things will become clear. Without being cryptic or anything like that...
I'm reading The Power and the Glory, and to my knowledge, only one other person in our class is reading it. I didn't initially like it but as it became increasingly dystopian I was quite pleased. The lack of character names tend to muddle things, but in general, this book is proving quite the rip-snortin' good time. I think I have found some allusions to "The Hollow Men" as well.
Okay Tom,
I finished reading it and let me conclude by saying that nothing has become clear to me. I have found some good websites about the allusions used in her novel so that is helping, but I cannot figure out what the author's tone is. Is she being critical? Passive?
That website truly is a amazing Meghan you are a life-saver :) But now I would like to pursue a different topic if you don't mind.
I find the dynamic between Jane and St. John Rivers incredibly complex and interesting. Together I see them as a sort of antithesis, a balance of opposing human natures. Where she exhibits plainness, fire, and passion, St. John displays the opposite in being ice-cold, attractive, ambitious, and strict. My question is what purpose does he serve in the novel? Does he illuminate the difference between the female and the male's idea of marriage and love? Does he act as a foil to her character? If so, why does Jane willingly subject herself to this oppression? Is it to drive away thoughts of her dear Mr. Rochester, to exert her efforts in pleasing a man other than him?
Now for the biggie: the ending. I just don't understand how after so much internal and external suffering in each of the characters that the novel has a happy ending. Though I admit I am a sap when it comes to love stories and I truly enjoy it when everything wraps up nicely, here I feel kind of jipped. I almost feel as if this happy ending would be unrealistic in society, that, being the flawed humans we are, the characters would not have the learned their lessons or atoned for their sins. Furthermore, I feel that Jane would have in reality been forced to accept the marriage proposal put forth by St. John, that she would have had no other choice in the face of such a domineering male figure. Therefore, I think that the ending is wishful thinking on Bronte's part. However, why does she express these wishes when throughout the novel she demonstrates society through a realistic lens, portraying the spectrum of human vice and suffering with the utmost clarity? But now that you know what I think, what do YOU think?
I know you are all busy with finals so don't feel pressured to answer :) Good Luck to you all!
Hello Kelly!
I found St. John to be a great example of antithesis, like you observed! But I also thinks he shows the dangerous imbalance that can occur when people deny their HUMANESS in their search for SPIRITUALITY. Jane is very spiritual and also worldly; she loves God and does her best to follow Him, while recognizing the world must have some claims on her and not denying her earthly passions. St. John has reached a place where he has smothered his humaness in his quest for God. The author views this in an admirable light, but also seems to question; similarly to Jane's cousin that chooses to become a nun, these characters lack deep personal conviction and faith that makes Jane's own beliefs so powerful. We cannot relate to St. John; Jane offers us an example of holiness we can all hope to achieve.
I actually think the ending is PERFECT, for the flaws you describe! The story, as you said, is all about internal and external sufferings, the weaknesses inherent in humans, and the human strive for goodness. The ending illustrates that in life, often one must sacrifice (Mr. Rochester very obviously, Jane in a more spiritual and emotional way) but that despite the flaws and sins of every human being, we all deserve a happy ending. No one in life should have to be alone and unhappy; Jane and Mr. Rochester show us how our souls can ultimately become whole even after they have been torn apart. There is a happy ending even for the "poor and plain," and for the rich and the fallen; there is a balance that can be reached between spirituality and earthly desires, and ultimately we are all capable of being happy within this balance!
Whew, what a book, hahaha! Hope that helped dear!
~Meghan
Dear Meghan!
The idea of Ghosts in figurative sense is amazing when you analyze Catherine's and Heathcliffe's love. Also when Mr.Lockwood wakes up from his dream he said that angels were angry and threw him to Wuthering Heights. I know you related Wuthering Heights to absence of civilization, but could it also be hell?
Think about it. It seems like a place without any means of escape. Catherine gets sucked into in when she marries Linton. Also just book is pretty depressing and sad so maybe that's why Bronte decided to name it Wuthering Heights because it symbolizes hell and dystopia?
Meghan thank you so much for your incredible ideas. I had never viewed the novel through the lens you presented and it has certainly benefitted me :)
In all honesty I deeply share your love of "Jane Eyre", and I believe it is my favorite novel of all time as well! Good luck this week and have a superb winter break!
Thanks so much Kelly I had a wonderful time talking with you!
Sweta: WE ROCKED THAT ESSAY, hahaha!
~Meghan
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